The Good Dr. Spence Responds To Tha Artstorian/Artivist's Essay On Class Warfare In Black Lit. And Theater...

Both Pictures Are The Copyrighted Property Of R2C2H2

Dr. Spence The Originator of This Discussion Responds To My Take On His Post "Class Warfare In Black Lit. And Theater"...To See What I Originally Said Please Go Click On The Following Link:
http://weallbe.blogspot.com/2007/04/tha-artstorian-responds-to-class.html

Dr. Spence's Words Are In Red While Tha Artstorian/Artivist's Words Are In Blue:

Dr. Spence Says...
"Bro. Herd I believe there is some miscommunication here. On the one level I think you are right in that Cruse would probably have a great deal of respect for Perry's project, because of the relative autonomy he has been able to carve out for himself. But on the other Cruse was interested not solely in autonomy but in the development of the art itself. And this is where Perry, and many self-published writers fall short. Perry and some of the self-published artists have been able to make a great deal of money...but have they pushed the ART forward? What new techniques have they developed? What aspects of the black experience have they done a better job of delving into than their peers? They do own the means of cultural production, but what are they doing with those means? Now Perry and others argue--as you do--that he is reaching a group of people that no one else is reaching. And for this we should applaud especially because these people are working class black folk. Lil John routinely sells more than ten times the cds that any straight ahead black jazz artist sells. Does this mean that we should have kids listen to more Lil John?"

Tha Artstorian/Artivist Says...
"Prof. Spence, i definitely appreciate this extended dialogue...Jesse Jackson once said that he did not have a problem with the Amos and Andy Show when it first came out..His problem was that it was the only Black show on television at that time..I do think we should have a range of Black images available in all artforms, but I also believe like the Imus incident illustrates that until we can control our own instituitons and revenue we will never have the chance to have innovation that's going to be commercially successful... Oscar Micheaux once said that in order to be successful you must have access to talent, finance and distribution...He went on to say that if you control one out of the three you had a voice, but if you controlled two out of the three you are a force...We are too busy asking for acceptance when we should be creating our own value codes and standards...Why is it that Picasso is more valuable than a Romare Bearden??? Who makes those value calls??? When we attack each other, we are not really attacking the enemy...What qualifies as art and innovation are truly subjective calls...All of our most important art came from the so-called lower classes...Jazz and Ragtime were looked down upon by even our most distinguished scholars such as W.E.B. DuBois...It came from the brothels of American life...But now we have Jazz @ The Lincoln Center and we have National Jazz Appreciation Month in April...So history and time will only tell what was truly innovative and original...
Tha Artivist."

Dr. Spence Says...

"Quote:

Prof. Spence, i definitely appreciate this extended dialogue...Jesse Jackson once said that he did not have a problem with the Amos and Andy Show when it first came out..His problem was that it was the only Black show on television at that time..I do think we should have a range of Black images available in all artforms, but I also believe like the Imus incident illustrates that until we can control our own instituitons and revenue we will never have the chance to have innovation that's going to be commercially successful...

Why do you see the Imus incident being related?

Quote:

Oscar Micheaux once said that in order to be successful you must have access to talent, finance and distribution...He went on to say that if you control one out of the three you had a voice, but if you controlled two out of the three you are a force...We are too busy asking for acceptance when we should be creating our own value codes and standards...Why is it that Picasso is more valuable than a Romare Bearden??? Who makes those value calls???

I think I see where the issue is here. In both cases there is a legitimate difference of opinion that don't come from one side or another selling out to non-black folk. Both Matt and the black theater crew are looking solely to black artists for their standards. And both the self-published authors and Tyler Perry are getting most of their loot from black consumers. Where they differ is that the artists are arguing that more time should be developed on the artform itself in order to grow the art--and again they aren't talking about white standards here but black ones.

Quote:

When we attack each other, we are not really attacking the enemy...What qualifies as art and innovation are truly subjective calls...All of our most important art came from the so-called lower classes...Jazz and Ragtime were looked down upon by even our most distinguished scholars such as W.E.B. DuBois...It came from the brothels of American life...But now we have Jazz @ The Lincoln Center and we have National Jazz Appreciation Month in April...So history and time will only tell what was truly innovative and original...

What qualifies as art and innovation are in PART subjective. But as each art grows it develops a set of principles by which it can be judged. And this gives us the ability to say that JayZ is a better MC than Vanilla Ice was. That Wynton Marsalis is better than Kenny G. I do think there is a way for the two groups to work together--combining the economic savvy with the artistic values. But the only way for this to happen is if we allow the arguments to continue, rather than asking people to stifle them for a false unity.

lks"

Tha Artstorian/Artivist Says...

"Quote:

Why do you see the Imus incident being related?

The Imus Incident Is Relevant because it shows how we as a people got our priorities in the wrong place...I listened to the Imus Show for 5 years and he was always known for saying over the top and outrageous things...I liked the show because it showed what many in White America really thought about people of color in private...He was allowed to be over the top because his environment was conducive to these type of rants so as long as sponsors were willing to pay for his airtime...However, when Al and Jesse were protesting to get Imus fired, the real reason he got fired was because his sponsors pulled out not because NBC and CBS got some moral backbone...In reality Al, Jesse and others should have been treating the problem at its root instead of the symptom which was represented in Imus...CBS, Viacom, BET,VH1 and MTV are all part of the same monster...If they were really seriously about stopping the negative images of Black Folks being sent around the world in music videos and other forms of communication then they would have altogether stop promoting these images by stop playing these degrading videos on their music stations...This would have forced the record labels and music industry to really "upgrade" and "restrict" the musical content of their artists because without these outlets for exposure and distribution they won't be able to make any money...Also the fact that the Rutgers Women Basketball Team did not have the final say in the fate of Imus shows once again that it's all about the bottom line with Corporate America... I say all of this to say that instead of trying to censor and silence things/people we don't like , we should be in the business of creating and promoting our own institutions and businesses which promote our own agendas and images...You can not call yourself a culture if you do not control your own images...For example, when Birth Of A Nation first came out, the movie showing the Ku Klux Klan as American Heroes, many Black folks were up in arms protesting its release and play in American theatres...However, Oscar Micheaux decided to protest in his own way by creating his answer back film Within Our Gates...By him doing this he got remembered on his own terms instead of being a footnote in somebody else's story...

Quote:

I think I see where the issue is here. In both cases there is a legitimate difference of opinion that don't come from one side or another selling out to non-black folk. Both Matt and the black theater crew are looking solely to black artists for their standards. And both the self-published authors and Tyler Perry are getting most of their loot from black consumers. Where they differ is that the artists are arguing that more time should be developed on the artform itself in order to grow the art--and again they aren't talking about white standards here but black ones.

Donald Goines wrote 16 books in 5 years...Some people might say that he wasn't a great writer and that he should have taken time to edit his works... However, Mr. Goines was a phenomenal storyteller (out of the African Griot tradition) and he is one of the best selling Black authors of all time influencing a generation of Hip Hop Artists and Icons such as The Notorious B.I.G., Jay Z, Nas, Tupac,DMX and Ludacris some thirty plus years after death...I think in the end what people expect from artists in all genres is more of a personal/ spiritual connection than some display of esoteric brilliance...Now there is art out there for everyone, but you can't say that Clifford Brown was a greater trumpeter than Miles or that Barry Bonds is or was a better player than Willie Mays and take them as being objective observations...Most people say that so and so is the greatest based on everything sometimes,but logic...I think there is room for everybody to grow and learn from each other...Why were Paul Laurence Dunbar and Zora Neale Hurston looked down upon for their forays in to Black dialect or language vernacular in their works yet people like Mark Twain and James Joyce are /were praised for their abilities to play with the English language??? It all comes back to who controls the interpretation of your culture.

Quote:

What qualifies as art and innovation are in PART subjective. But as each art grows it develops a set of principles by which it can be judged. And this gives us the ability to say that JayZ is a better MC than Vanilla Ice was. That Wynton Marsalis is better than Kenny G. I do think there is a way for the two groups to work together--combining the economic savvy with the artistic values. But the only way for this to happen is if we allow the arguments to continue, rather than asking people to stifle them for a false unity. lks

I agree with you, but still disagree to say that so and so is better...If you look at Blues history they would have you think that Robert Johnson was the most popular Blues Artist that ever lived...As a matter of fact he wasn't as well known during his lifetime as people would now believed he was...He barely sold 5 thousand records during his lifetime...The most popular Blues singer of Robert Johnson's time was St. Louis based artist Peetie Wheatstraw...Wheatstraw was also an influence on Johnson's falsetto singing style...However he is forgotten about today... Who made Robert Johnson the King of the Blues??? White people who re-discovered his records back in the 1960s...People like Eric Clapton, Pete Townsend and Keith Richards, all British Rockers, who learned how to play blues and rock and roll from the Black pioneers first hand such as Little Richard, B.B. King, Willie Dixon, Bo Diddley and others who would go over to play in England...B.B. King once said that all the Beatles did was re-import the Blues...The Rolling Stones the band as the well as the magazine got their name from a popular Muddy Waters song...As a matter of fact, the first thing the Rolling Stones wanted to do when they got to America was go to Chicago to find the Blues Masters Howling Wolf and Muddy Waters...Yet I still remember to this day that when I first saw Rolling Stone's controversial 100 Rock Immortals it seemed to to me that numbers 6-10 should have actually been numbers 1-5...to see what I'm talking about check it out for yourself: Rolling Stone : The Immortals: The First Fifty I say all of this to say that we must stop letting others tell us who are greatest so and so are to us by creating and practicing our own value standards...We must learn how to control the mechanisms to tell our own stories on our own terms...We are never going to get our proper due if we continue to let other people set our table... In light of the issue I brought up about Robert Johnson and Peetie Wheatstraw it seems that people penalize you in hindsight for being popular and commercially successful during your lifetime...It must mean that your product or artistry was watered down and not authentic...There's really no reason why a person like Peetie Wheatstraw and countless others shouldn't be remembered for the great artists that they were and are...We must be careful how we portray history to future generations looking back for knowledge and inspiration... I do think that we can all agree to disagree and work together for the greater good..."

Now You All Read What We Had To Say...So What Do You All Say???